{"id":46185,"date":"2000-01-01T00:00:00","date_gmt":"2000-01-01T00:00:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/archivos\/46185"},"modified":"2026-03-10T08:34:54","modified_gmt":"2026-03-10T08:34:54","slug":"entrevista-a-rafael-gelman-anecdotario-de-un-coleccionista","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/entrevista-a-rafael-gelman-anecdotario-de-un-coleccionista\/","title":{"rendered":"Entrevista a Rafael Gelman: \u201cAnecdotario de un coleccionista"},"content":{"rendered":"

Autor:<\/strong> Vivianne Lor\u00eda<\/p>\n

Revista:<\/strong> L\u00c1PIZ Revista Internacional de Arte n\u00ba 221<\/p>\n\n

Rafael Gelman es una figura habitual en las mejores ferias internacionales. Sociable y ocurrente, dista mucho de la tendencia al estrellato que \u00faltimamente afecta a muchos coleccionistas. As\u00ed, resulta amigable sin ambages ya en el primer contacto, y no teme expresarse con un entusiasmo contagioso acerca de lo que adora o detesta entre lo visto en la feria de turno. Junto a su esposa, Jeannette, Gelman se desplaza por los recintos feriales en busca de la peque\u00f1a joya que encaje en el intrigante rompecabezas que es su colecci\u00f3n. Como todos los coleccionistas que llevan adelante esta pr\u00e1ctica como una especie de doble vida secreta \u2013profesionales liberales o empresarios que son, a la vez y de forma casi oculta, exquisitos buscadores de tesoros art\u00edsticos\u2013, los Gelman mantienen una gran discreci\u00f3n en cuanto a las obras que conforman su colecci\u00f3n. De hecho, han preferido que no aparezca ninguna reproducida en esta entrevista. Pero, en realidad, esta actitud no responde a ning\u00fan celo neur\u00f3tico de su intimidad. Como explica Rafael Gelman con su franqueza habitual, la situaci\u00f3n pol\u00edtica en Venezuela, adem\u00e1s de obligarle a desplazar buena parte de su colecci\u00f3n al extranjero, le impele a no airear sus adquisiciones. <\/p>\n

PREGUNTA.- \u00bfC\u00f3mo fueron sus comienzos como coleccionista? <\/p>\n

RESPUESTA.- Cuando comienzas a coleccionar a una edad muy temprana, cometes muchos errores, pero \u00e9stos van disminuyendo a medida que vas leyendo m\u00e1s, y visitando mejores galer\u00edas, adem\u00e1s de asistir a ferias, bienales, etc. Al comienzo, mi colecci\u00f3n estuvo centrada, sobre todo, en los pintores regionales de la ciudad de Maracaibo, una escuela de dibujo que en alguna ocasi\u00f3n ha representado a Venezuela en la Bienal de Venecia. Posteriormente, me fui inclinando por pintores importantes a escala nacional, para pasar muy r\u00e1pidamente a interesarme por artistas de relevancia internacional. Al principio, mi esposa y yo est\u00e1bamos siempre de acuerdo; luego, yo me fui inclinando m\u00e1s hacia la fotograf\u00eda. Compr\u00e9 entonces una serie de fotos sin que mi mujer lo supiera; descubri\u00f3 la compra cuando se encontr\u00f3 las piezas en casa. Eso hizo que me viera obligado a alquilar un dep\u00f3sito para guardar aquellas obras con respecto a las cuales no logr\u00e1bamos un acuerdo. As\u00ed, a ra\u00edz de esta ocasional falta de acuerdo, llegu\u00e9 a esconder dinero y cheques para, sin saberlo mi esposa, poder comprar ciertas obras, y esto motiv\u00f3 un trabajo que present\u00f3 uno de mis hijos en la Universidad de Columbia sobre comercializaci\u00f3n y mercadeo. Nunca hab\u00edan o\u00eddo all\u00ed cosa semejante: que se tuviese que esconder dinero para comprar obras de arte. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfC\u00f3mo se convierte uno en coleccionista? <\/p>\n

R.- No lo puedo explicar, en realidad. Mi padre es ruso, y mi madre es de Marruecos, y es verdad que mi padre ten\u00eda un almac\u00e9n en donde guardaba pinturas de artistas de Ruman\u00eda o de Polonia, piezas que a veces costaban cinco o diez d\u00f3lares, que compraba a un mayorista, quien a su vez las compraba a muchachos j\u00f3venes. Eso era lo \u00fanico que yo ve\u00eda. Pero no tuve una \u201cescuela\u201d, y tampoco estudi\u00e9 al principio. Fue a partir del noviazgo con mi esposa cuando comenc\u00e9 a comprar arte. Hace ya cuarenta y cinco a\u00f1os, compr\u00e9 una peque\u00f1a obra a un estudiante, en la Facultad de Arquitectura \u2013obra que todav\u00eda conservo, muy cubista\u2013, y se la regal\u00e9 a mi entonces novia. Aquella pieza me cost\u00f3 aproximadamente veinte d\u00f3lares. Posteriormente, a los 23 a\u00f1os de edad, nos fuimos a Europa a hacer un Doctorado, en 1968. Mi suegro me hab\u00eda hecho un regalo para poder viajar, y con el dinero que me sobr\u00f3 me pude comprar, ese mismo a\u00f1o, un lin\u00f3leo de Picasso, un grabado de Mir\u00f3, un grabado de Dal\u00ed, y un Jean Cocteau, y a\u00fan me sobr\u00f3 para comprar la primera obra realmente contempor\u00e1nea que tuve, que fue un Appel que adquir\u00ed en Holanda. Esta obra me cost\u00f3 doce d\u00f3lares y todav\u00eda la conservo. Nos formamos solos como coleccionistas. Hemos estudiado, y creo que hemos llegado a conocer bastante bien el arte actual. Estoy suscrito a muchas revistas de arte, y las leo todas. Creo que de ah\u00ed me ha venido esta vocaci\u00f3n que realmente no puedo contener. Soy un comprador compulsivo: quiero poseer todo lo que veo \u2013dentro de lo que creo que es bueno\u2013, y as\u00ed ha sido mi vida como coleccionista. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfDescubre interesantes revelaciones leyendo revistas de arte? <\/p>\n

R.- Yo creo que la revista es la primera fuente donde se obtiene la informaci\u00f3n necesaria para saber lo que pasa en arte. Al adquirir una revista espa\u00f1ola, con un car\u00e1cter muy universal, como L \u00e1piz , o una revista inglesa, o una francesa, o las americanas \u2013de las cuales hay tres conocidas por todos: Art in America, Art News <\/em>y Artforum <\/em>\u2013, te formas una visi\u00f3n del arte contempor\u00e1neo que ning\u00fan museo ni ninguna feria del mundo te puede ofrecer. Para ser precisos, es en las revistas donde te dicen exactamente por d\u00f3nde est\u00e1 yendo la cosa. Por eso, para m\u00ed, estar suscrito a buenas revistas es algo imprescindible si se desea estar al d\u00eda de lo que ocurre en el arte contempor\u00e1neo. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfQu\u00e9 caso hace de lo que le cuentan los galeristas, a la hora de adquirir una obra de arte? <\/p>\n

R.- Bueno, hay galeristas de muchos tipos. Hay unos que son bastante serios, a los que escuchas cuando te dicen: \u201cMira esta obra, es buena\u201d. Si me lo dicen, por ejemplo, Chantal Crousel, Templon, Lelong, o Juana de Aizpuru, les creo, y en verdad les hemos comprado a ellos bastante. Es indudable que hay muchos galeristas serios, y que tambi\u00e9n hay muchos otros que no merecen la confianza de nadie. A prop\u00f3sito de este asunto, recuerdo cuando una vez visitamos una exposici\u00f3n de Wifredo Lam en la galer\u00eda Lelong de Nueva York y pedimos el precio de un cuadro; la joven a cargo me dijo que val\u00eda 45.000 d\u00f3lares, a lo que respond\u00ed que deb\u00eda estar equivocada. Ella hizo una consulta en las oficinas y volvi\u00f3 afirmando: \u201c\u00c9se es el precio\u201d. Le advert\u00ed: \u201cNo te quiero robar\u201d, pero sigui\u00f3 insistiendo en que val\u00eda 45.000 d\u00f3lares. Entonces entr\u00f3 en la galer\u00eda Jean Fr\u00e9mon, uno de los due\u00f1os de Lelong, y le cont\u00e9 lo que ocurr\u00eda. \u00c9l se sorprendi\u00f3, y me dijo: \u201cPues no, esa pieza vale 160.000 d\u00f3lares\u201d. De haber sido yo un bandido, hubiera aceptado el precio, haciendo el negocio de mi vida. Sin embargo, as\u00ed como en Lelong no se portan de esta forma conmigo, yo tampoco podr\u00eda aprovecharme de semejante situaci\u00f3n. Desde esa fecha, mantenemos una relaci\u00f3n de mucha confianza con esta galer\u00eda. <\/p>\n

P.- No obstante, se da tambi\u00e9n lo contrario, casos de estafa… <\/p>\n

R.- S\u00ed, sin duda, se dan tambi\u00e9n casos de estafa. De hecho, estoy sufriendo ahora uno yo mismo, por parte de una galerista de Nueva York, que me vendi\u00f3 un cuadro falso de Amelia Pel\u00e1ez hace un tiempo. Ped\u00ed que me certificaran el cuadro, y el cuadro es, sin lugar a dudas, falso, as\u00ed que le solicit\u00e9 a la galerista que me devolviera el dinero, a lo que respondi\u00f3 que lo \u00fanico que me pod\u00eda devolver eran 8.000 d\u00f3lares, suma que correspond\u00eda a lo que ella hab\u00eda ganado en la operaci\u00f3n. Lo triste es que a esta galerista yo le he comprado m\u00e1s de 400.000 d\u00f3lares en obras, \u00e9sa es la magnitud de los negocios que manten\u00eda con ella, de modo que ha perdido un buen cliente. <\/p>\n

P.- Aparte de esta experiencia lamentable, \u00bfse ha arrepentido de haber comprado alguna obra? <\/p>\n

R.- No puedo decir que me haya arrepentido… Nunca vendo obras de mi colecci\u00f3n. Las conservo todas. Tengo tres casas llenas de obras de arte, en Estados Unidos, y tengo dos dep\u00f3sitos, uno particular y otro especial, donde guardo las cosas muy, muy buenas. Cuando compro, lo hago con plena convicci\u00f3n. En estos momentos, voy detr\u00e1s de una obra de Thomas Hirschhorn, que a\u00fan no he podido conseguir (no la que me gusta, al menos). En Paris Photo, encontr\u00e9 un Allora & Calzadilla que me encant\u00f3, y me lo compr\u00e9. Me muevo de forma muy impulsiva. En todo caso, tengo ahora en mente, adem\u00e1s de la obra de Hirschhorn, una pieza de Alain S\u00e9chas, del que tengo varios objetos, pero quiero alg\u00fan otro. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfHay muchas obras por ah\u00ed que usted desear\u00eda y que no puede adquirir? <\/p>\n

R.- Uf, s\u00ed. Siempre quise tener un Rauschenberg, por ejemplo, y creo que ya se me fue de las manos. \u00c9ste es un pintor que me apasiona, que me entusiasma enormemente, y un artista a quien conozco adem\u00e1s, con quien tenemos fotograf\u00edas mi esposa y yo. Pero, lamentablemente, cuando voy acerc\u00e1ndome a la posibilidad de comprar una de sus obras, \u00e9l sube otro escal\u00f3n. Se me escapa. Eso ya me ocurri\u00f3 antes: cuando me gradu\u00e9 ten\u00eda algunos ahorros y, estando en Par\u00eds, en 1969, me ofrecieron un Max Ernst, un parab\u00e1n, pintado por las seis caras, por el que me ped\u00edan 96.000 francos \u2013unos 20.000 d\u00f3lares en aquella \u00e9poca\u2013, pero yo no ten\u00eda suficiente dinero para comprarlo. Para cuando reun\u00ed el dinero, las obras de este artista costaban mucho m\u00e1s. Lo mismo me sucedi\u00f3 con un Calder de mesa, un Calder peque\u00f1ito que ped\u00ed a un dealer que me consiguiera. Tuve que hacer un viaje a Venezuela, dejando a mi mujer en Par\u00eds; ella me llam\u00f3 a las dos semanas d\u00e1ndome la noticia de que nos hab\u00edan conseguido el Calder. Costaba 25.000 francos \u2013en esa \u00e9poca, el franco y el bol\u00edvar de Venezuela estaban a la par\u2013, eran 5.000 d\u00f3lares, pero yo, que estaba terminando mi a\u00f1o sab\u00e1tico, hab\u00eda gastado todo lo que ten\u00edamos ahorrado, as\u00ed que le aconsej\u00e9 a mi mujer: \u201cNi lo vayas a ver, porque si lo ves lo vamos a comprar\u201d. Fue un gran error. Deb\u00ed haber solicitado un pr\u00e9stamo en el banco para comprar ese Calder, que ahora vale entre 600.000 y 700.000 d\u00f3lares. Son errores que uno comete. Como coleccionista, vas muchas veces detr\u00e1s de cosas que desear\u00edas tener como fuera, pero que no logras alcanzar. En todo caso, s\u00ed tengo otras muchas cosas, muy buenas, y soy muy feliz vi\u00e9ndolas. <\/p>\n

P.- Se inclina entonces por convivir con las obras de su colecci\u00f3n. <\/p>\n

R.- Indiscutiblemente. Aunque algunas est\u00e1n guardadas, s\u00ed vivo rodeado por mis obras. Las tengo en el apartamento de Miami, en la casa de mi hijo, y en el apartamento de mi hija. Y tambi\u00e9n tengo algunas obras en casa de mi hijo en Madrid. El ver las obras me estimula para continuar con la colecci\u00f3n. Es una pena que en Venezuela no hayamos podido dejar mejores piezas. All\u00ed se ha quedado la colecci\u00f3n de arte venezolano. Pero estoy contento: vivo rodeado de cosas que tengo desde mi juventud y de las cuales no deseo desprenderme. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfLe han dado problemas de conservaci\u00f3n algunas obras? <\/p>\n

R.- No, no he tenido mayores problemas con la conservaci\u00f3n. De Arte Povera tengo muy poco, pues he observado c\u00f3mo muchos amigos que tienen obras Povera las han visto degradarse, y eso me ha hecho evitar meterme de lleno en esa corriente. Y es que, adem\u00e1s, cuando un museo te pide prestada una obra Povera, es muy dif\u00edcil que te la devuelva en las mismas condiciones en que la enviaste. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfHuye usted entonces de obras que exigen medidas especiales de conservaci\u00f3n? <\/p>\n

R.- Me lo pienso, pues poco ganamos al adquirir una obra que va a ir degener\u00e1ndose con el paso del tiempo. Entonces ya no ser\u00e1 la obra que t\u00fa quer\u00edas tener. Siempre debes hacerte con la obra que puedas conservar, y que pueda \u201cservir\u201d a los dem\u00e1s, si alg\u00fan d\u00eda te la piden prestada. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfCu\u00e1l cree que ser\u00e1 el destino de su colecci\u00f3n? <\/p>\n

R.- Yo pens\u00e9 hacer una fundaci\u00f3n, que acogiera las obras, pero no nos hemos puesto de acuerdo mi esposa y yo. Me gustar\u00eda que mi colecci\u00f3n estuviese a la vista de todo el mundo. Sin embargo, dada la situaci\u00f3n pol\u00edtica en Venezuela, esto de momento no puede ser. Ojal\u00e1 pudiera alg\u00fan d\u00eda ceder la colecci\u00f3n a una buena instituci\u00f3n, a alg\u00fan museo, o a alguna fundaci\u00f3n de mi pa\u00eds. Desear\u00eda que esas obras estuvieran expuestas siempre. De lo contrario, mis hijos se quedar\u00e1n con las que m\u00e1s les gusten, y el resto, lamentablemente, ir\u00e1 a subasta. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfSe puede heredar el gusto por el coleccionismo? <\/p>\n

R.- Yo creo que s\u00ed. Todos los domingos llev\u00e1bamos a nuestros hijos, cuando ten\u00edan cinco a\u00f1os de edad, a ver galer\u00edas. Ellos protestaban, pero siempre iban. M\u00e1s tarde, cuando mis hijos, en la ciudad de Caracas, comenzaron sus carreras universitarias, uno en Econom\u00eda y el otro en Administraci\u00f3n, deseaban mantenerse solos. Fue as\u00ed como idearon vender obras de arte. Se valieron para ello de los contactos que ten\u00edamos con los artistas, quienes les dieron piezas en consignaci\u00f3n, y, en cinco a\u00f1os de carrera, llegaron a vender casi 540 obras de arte. En cuanto a mi hija, la puedes ver visitando ferias ella sola; no quiere que yo la acompa\u00f1e, para que no influya en su gusto. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfAdquiere usted m\u00e1s en ferias, o prefiere comprar en las sedes de las galer\u00edas? <\/p>\n

R.- Visito constantemente numerosas galer\u00edas en distintas ciudades. Las de Madrid, por ejemplo, las visito dos o tres veces al a\u00f1o, pero prefiero las de Francia, seguidas por las de Nueva York. No obstante, donde m\u00e1s adquiero piezas, realmente, es en ferias. Compro cuatro o cinco piezas en promedio, algunas m\u00e1s valiosas que otras. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfDestina alg\u00fan presupuesto anual m\u00e1s o menos fijo a la adquisici\u00f3n de obras de arte? <\/p>\n

R.- La verdad es que no, no planifico ning\u00fan presupuesto, y eso es motivo de pelea entre mi mujer y yo. Ella a veces me reprocha: \u201c\u00a1Caramba! Este a\u00f1o hemos gastado mucho en obras de arte\u201d… Total, en ocasiones pasamos una temporada \u2013seis, ocho meses\u2013 sin comprar nada, porque no vemos nada que nos interese. En otros momentos, compramos cinco o diez obras de una vez. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfCu\u00e1les considera que son las ferias de arte m\u00e1s importantes? <\/p>\n

R.- Puedo enumerar las ferias m\u00e1s importantes para m\u00ed, aqu\u00e9llas a las que acudo. En primer lugar, arco , en Madrid, que es una feria que ha hecho que la ciudad cambie, a la que acuden 200.000 personas. \u00c9sa es una afluencia nunca vista en ninguna feria. La primera vez que estuve en ARCO, vi c\u00f3mo la gente ven\u00eda con sus bocadillos y su botella de vino y se sentaban en los pasillos a merendar. Me pareci\u00f3 inmensamente bello, muy po\u00e9tico, a pesar de que a algunos galeristas no les gustara. Despu\u00e9s de arco , que es una feria populosa, nos gusta ir al Armory Show, que ha alcanzado un buen nivel en lo estrictamente contempor\u00e1neo. Despu\u00e9s del Armory Show, nos gusta Art Basel en Suiza, que es la reina de las ferias por ahora. En Basilea, el problema es que, despu\u00e9s de que se cierra la feria, a las siete de la tarde, no hay muchos sitios donde comer, ni terrazas donde solazarte. Resulta fastidioso; no hay nada que hacer, y es que uno va a una ciudad no solo a ver arte, sino tambi\u00e9n a comer bien, a divertirse. Despu\u00e9s de Basel, nos gusta ir a Frieze… Aunque este a\u00f1o no fui, ya que el a\u00f1o pasado [2004] se dieron unos incidentes que nos disgustaron: aparentemente, dejaron entrar a determinado n\u00famero de coleccionistas antes que a los invitados especiales. Para cuando entramos nosotros, todo se hab\u00eda vendido ya, en media hora. Aquellos coleccionistas a los que hicieron entrar antes hab\u00edan comprado pr\u00e1cticamente todo lo que interesaba. En fin, despu\u00e9s de Frieze, Art Basel Miami Beach es la quinta feria a la que nos gusta asistir. Por supuesto, tambi\u00e9n visitamos la feria de Caracas y otras ferias peque\u00f1as, pero m\u00e1s como muestra de apoyo que para comprar, porque se trata de ferias que a\u00fan no ofrecen obras de la calidad que buscamos para nuestra colecci\u00f3n. <\/p>\n

P.- De lo que ha dicho antes sobre sus visitas a las galer\u00edas puede inferirse que siente preferencia por las galer\u00edas francesas. \u00bfQu\u00e9 puede decirnos de la feria de arte m\u00e1s representativa de Par\u00eds, la fiac ? <\/p>\n

R.- Estuvimos asistiendo a la FIAC durante a\u00f1os, cuando cre\u00edamos que era una buena feria. El problema fue que decay\u00f3 much\u00edsimo, y aunque llevan dos a\u00f1os tratando de mejorarla, todav\u00eda no es una feria que alcance el nivel de las cinco que he mencionado antes. Volvimos a visitar la FIAC en 2004 y hemos regresado este a\u00f1o tambi\u00e9n, y, s\u00ed, la vimos un poco mejor, pero ya no es una de las cinco mejores. <\/p>\n

P.- Bueno, obviamente, tendr\u00e1 obras de muchos artistas espa\u00f1oles en su colecci\u00f3n… <\/p>\n

R.- S\u00ed, c\u00f3mo no. Tengo cosas \u201cviejas\u201d de Espa\u00f1a, as\u00ed como cosas nuevas. Por ejemplo, en fotograf\u00eda, tengo a Garc\u00eda Rodero y a Garc\u00eda-\u00c1lix. Tambi\u00e9n tengo a Fernando S\u00e1nchez Castillo, y varios m\u00e1s. En general, de lo contempor\u00e1neo, tengo m\u00e1s que nada fotograf\u00eda. En cuanto a los \u201ccl\u00e1sicos\u201d, tengo obras de Saura, T\u00e0pies y Mir\u00f3. <\/p>\n

P.- \u00bfC\u00f3mo ve la calidad de las galer\u00edas espa\u00f1olas? <\/p>\n

R.- Bien, bien. No tienen nada que envidiar a galer\u00edas de otros pa\u00edses. Juana de Aizpuru, Helga de Alvear, etc., est\u00e1n a la altura de cualquier galer\u00eda del mundo. Hay en Espa\u00f1a, claro est\u00e1, galer\u00edas que no llegan, pero que se esfuerzan. Por ejemplo, me gusta mucho visitar la galer\u00eda Moriarty, en Madrid; presenta cosas que me atraen bastante. Igualmente, en Par\u00eds hay galer\u00edas, como la de Kamel Mennour \u2013una galer\u00eda de fotograf\u00eda\u2013, que llegar\u00e1n a ser muy importantes, indudablemente. <\/p>\n

interview with rafael gelman .The anecdotes of a collector <\/strong><\/p>\n

Rafael Gelman is a regular at the best international art fairs. Sociable and witty, he is not interested in the stardom that has affected many collectors in the last years. He is friendly from the start, and does not beat around the bush. He is not afraid to speak with contagious enthusiasm about what he loved or hated at this or that fair. With his wife, Jeannette, Gelman visits different art fairs in search of the small jewel that fits in the intriguing puzzle of his collection. Like all collectors who consider this practice a sort of secret double life \u2013liberal professionals or entrepreneurs who are increasingly, and at the same time almost mysteriously, becoming exquisite treasure hunters\u2013, the Gelmans are very discreet when referring to the works in their collection. In fact, they have preferred no reproductions to appear in this interview. Yet, in truth, this attitude is not caused by a neurotic zeal towards their privacy. As Rafael Gelman says with his habitual frankness, the political situation in Venezuela, as well as making him move a good part of his collection abroad, urges him to not reveal his acquisitions. <\/p>\n

QUESTION.- How do you describe your first steps as a collector? <\/p>\n

ANSWER.- When you start collecting at a young age, you make a lot of mistakes, but they decrease as you read more and visit better galleries and go to fairs, biennials, etc. At first my collection focused, mainly, on the regional painters from the city of Maracaibo, a school of drawing that has on occasion represented Venezuela at the Venice Biennial. Subsequently, I started favouring painters that were known nationally, to then quickly move on to internationally renowned artists. At first, my wife and I always agreed on the artists; then, I started to favour photography. Back then I bought a series of photographs without my wife knowing; she discovered the purchase when she found the works at home. So I had to rent a warehouse to deposit the works which we did not agree on. Consequently, in view of this lack of agreement, I even hid money and cheques so that I could buy certain works without my wife knowing. One of my children presented a paper on this fact at Columbia University on commercialisation and marketing. They had never heard anything of the like: hiding money to buy works of art. <\/p>\n

Q.- How does one become a collector? <\/p>\n

A.- I cannot really explain it. My father is Russian and my mother is from Morocco, and my father did have a warehouse where he stored paintings by Romanian and Polish artists, pieces that were sometimes worth five or ten dollars, that he bought from a wholesaler, who bought them from young boys. That was all I used to see. But I had no \u201cschooling\u201d in this subject, and I did not study it either at first. I started buying art when I started dating my wife. Forty-five years ago I bought a small work from a student, at the School of Architecture \u2013a very cubist piece that I still have today\u2013, and I gave it to my wife, my girlfriend at the time. That piece cost me about twenty dollars. Then, when I was 23 years old, we went to Europe to study a Ph. D. course, in 1968. My father-in-law gave me a gift so I could travel, and with the money that was left over, that same year, I was able to buy a linoleum by Picasso, an engraving by Mir\u00f3, an engraving by Dal\u00ed, and a Jean Cocteau, and I still had enough left over to buy my first genuinely contemporary piece, an Appel I bought in Holland. That work cost me twelve dollars and I still have it. We educated ourselves as collectors. We have studied, and I think we have quite a good notion of contemporary art. I have taken out subscriptions with many art magazines, and I read them all. I think that is where this vocation I cannot contain has come from. I am a compulsive buyer: I want to own everything I see \u2013as long as I think it is good\u2013, and that is how my life as a collector has been. <\/p>\n

Q.- Do you discover interesting revelations reading art magazines? <\/p>\n

A.- I think magazines are the most important source for information about what is going on in the art world. When you buy a Spanish magazine, with a universal nature, like L\u00c1PIZ, or an English or a French magazine, or any of the American ones \u2013there are three very well-known publications: Art in America, Art News <\/em>and Artforum <\/em>\u2013, you can establish a vision of contemporary art that no museum or fair in the world could offer you. To be precise, it’s the magazines that say exactly what is happening in art. Consequently, in my opinion it is crucial to be subscribed to good magazines to be aware of what is going on in the contemporary art world. <\/p>\n

Q.- How much attention do you pay to what gallerists or dealers tell you when you buy a work of art? <\/p>\n

A.- Well, there are lots of types of gallerists. Some are very serious, and you listen to those when they say: \u201cLook at this work, it’s good.\u201d If Chantal Crousel, Templon, Lelong, or Juana de Aizpuru, for example, say that, I believe them, and I have actually bought a lot of art from them. There are obviously many earnest gallerists and dealers, but there are also others that nobody should trust. As regards this issue, I remember one time that we visited a Wifredo Lam exhibition at the Lelong Gallery in New York and we asked about the price of a painting; the young girl in charge of the venue said it cost 45,000 dollars, and I told her that she must be wrong. So she went to ask at the offices and when she came back she said: \u201cYes, that’s the price.\u201d I said: \u201cI don’t want to rob you,\u201d but she insisted it was worth 45,000 dollars. Then Jean Fr\u00e9mon, one of the owners of Lelong, came into the gallery and I told him what was happening. He was surprised, and said: \u201cNo, this piece is worth 160,000 dollars.\u201d If I had been a crook I would have accepted the price she had given me, it would have been the purchase of a lifetime. However, they have never tried to trick me in Lelong, so I did not want to take advantage of that situation. Since then, we have a very trustworthy relationship with that gallery. <\/p>\n

Q.- However, the opposite also occurs; some people get conned… <\/p>\n

A.- Oh, yes, of course some people get conned. In fact I am in the middle of one right now, I was conned by a New York gallerist, who sold me a fake Amelia Pel\u00e1ez painting some time ago. I got the painting certified and there is no doubt that it is a forgery, so I asked the gallerist to refund the money I had paid, and she answered that all she could do was give me 8,000 dollars, the amount that she had made in the transaction. The sad thing is that I have spent over 400,000 dollars in works with that gallerist; that was the magnitude of the business operations I did with her\u2026 So she has obviously lost a good client. <\/p>\n

Q.- Apart from this sorry experience, have you ever regretted buying a work? <\/p>\n

A.- I can’t say that I have ever regretted a purchase\u2026 I never sell the works in my collection. I keep them all. I have three houses full of art works, in the United States, and I have two warehouses, a private one and a special one, where I store very, very good things. When I buy something, I do it with complete conviction. Right now I am after a work by Thomas Hirschhorn, although I still haven’t been able to get it (not the one I like, at least). At Paris Photo, I found an Allora & Calzadilla that I loved, and I bought it. I am very impulsive. In any case, at the moment, as well as the Hirschhorn, I am also considering a piece by Alain S\u00e9chas, as I have some of his works, but I want to buy a few others. <\/p>\n

Q.- Are there a lot of works around that you would like to have but you cannot afford? <\/p>\n

A.- Oh, yes. I have always wanted to have a Rauschenberg, for example, but I think his prices have gone too far for me now. He is a painter that I love, I am very enthusiastic about his work, and he is also an artist I know, who my wife and I have photos with. Yet, unfortunately, whenever I approach the possibility of buying one of his works, he goes up another step. He slips away from me. It is not the first time this has happened: when I graduated I had some savings and, whilst I was in Paris, in 1969, I was offered a Max Ernst, a screen painted on all six sides. They were asking 96,000 French Francs for it \u2013about 20,000 dollars of the time\u2013, but I did not have enough money to buy it. When I did gather the amount, Ernst’s works were a lot more expensive. The same occurred with a table piece by Calder, a small work I asked a dealer to get me. I had to travel to Venezuela, and left my wife in Paris; she called me after two weeks to tell me they had got us the Calder. It cost 25,000 Francs \u2013at the time the Franc and the Venezuelan Bolivar were at par value\u2013, so that made it 5,000 dollars, but I was at the end of my sabbatical, and I had spent everything we had saved up, so I said to my wife: \u201cDon’t even go and see it, because if you do, we’ll buy it.\u201d That was a big mistake. I should have asked for a loan from the bank to buy that Calder, because now it costs between 600,000 and 700,000 dollars. These are just mistakes one makes. As a collector, you often go after things you would like to have no matter what, but you just cannot have them. However, I do have other very good things, I have a lot of works, and contemplating them makes me very happy. <\/p>\n

Q.- So you prefer to live with the works in your collection? <\/p>\n

A.- Absolutely. Although some are stored, I do live surrounded by my works. I have them in the apartment in Miami, at my son’s house, at my daughter’s apartment. I also have some works at my son’s apartment in Madrid. Contemplating the works stimulates me to continue the collection. It’s a shame that we have not been able to leave better works in Venezuela. We left the Venezuelan art collection there. Yet, I’m happy: I live surrounded by things I have had since I was young and that I do not want to get rid of. <\/p>\n

Q.- Has it been difficult to conserve any of them? <\/p>\n

A.- No, I have never had a problem with conservation. I do not have many Arte Povera works, as I have seen how many of my friends that do have Povera works have seen them degrade, and that has stopped me from getting into that trend. The thing is that, also, when a museum asks you to lend a Povera piece, it is very difficult for them to return it in the same condition as you sent it. <\/p>\n

Q.- So do you keep away from works that require special conservation measures? <\/p>\n

A.- I do think twice about them, as there’s not much point in buying a work that will degenerate over time. As it will no longer be the work you wanted to own. You should always purchase works you can conserve, and that can be \u201cused\u201d by others if they ever ask you to lend them. <\/p>\n

Q.- Where do you think your collection will end up? <\/p>\n

A.- I have considered setting up a foundation that gathers all of our works, but my wife and I have not agreed on the issue yet. I would like the collection to be on show for the entire world. However, that is not possible at present given the political situation in Venezuela. I wish I could leave the collection to a good institution or to a museum or foundation in my country one day. I would like these works to always be on display. Otherwise my children will keep the ones they like the most and the rest, unfortunately, will be auctioned. <\/p>\n

Q.- Can the taste for collecting be inherited? <\/p>\n

A.- Yes, I think so. We used to take our children, when they were five years old, to visit galleries on Sundays. They used to complain, but they always came. Later on, in Caracas, when they started their university degrees, one in economy and the other in administration, they wanted to support themselves. So they decided to sell art works. They used our contacts at the time with artists, who gave them pieces on consignment, and, in the five years they spent at university, they sold almost 540 works of art. As regards my daughter, you can catch her visiting fairs on her own; she does not want me to go with her, so that I don’t influence her taste. <\/p>\n

Q.- Do you buy more at fairs, or do you prefer the actual gallery venues? <\/p>\n

A.- I continuously visit a number of galleries in different cities. For example, I visit the Madrid galleries about two or three times a year, but I prefer the French ones, followed by the ones in New York. Nevertheless, I do buy most of my pieces at fairs, actually. I buy about for or five pieces on average, some more expensive than others. <\/p>\n

Q.- Do you set aside a more or less pre-established annual budget for purchasing works of art? <\/p>\n

A.- Actually I do not, I don’t plan a budget and that is something my wife and I argue about. She complains sometimes: \u201cWow! This year we’ve spent a lot on art works\u201d… After all, sometimes six or eight months go buy without us buying anything, because we do not see anything that we like. At other times, we buy five or ten works in one go. <\/p>\n

Q.- In your opinion, which are the most important art fairs? <\/p>\n

A.- I can list the most important fairs for me, the ones that I go to. The first one is, arco , in Madrid, which has made the city change, and attracts 200,000 visitors. That attendance rate has never been seen at any other fair. The first time I visited arco , I saw how the people came with their sandwiches and their bottle of wine and they sat down in the halls to have lunch. I thought that was extremely beautiful, very poetic, although some gallerists did not like it. After arco , that is a very populous fair, we like going to the Armory Show, which has achieved a good level strictly as regards contemporary works. Then we like Art Basel Switzerland, which is the queen of fairs at present. At Basel, the problem is that when the fair closes down for the day, at seven in the evening, there are not that many places to eat or relax. That is quite annoying; there is nothing to do, since you do not just go to the city to see art, you also go to eat nice food and have fun. After Basel, we like to go to Frieze… Although I did not go this year, as last year [2004] we did not approve of certain events: they apparently let a specific number of collectors in before the special guests. By the time we got in, everything had been sold, in half an hour. The collectors they let in first had bought almost all the interesting pieces. So, after Frieze, Art Basel Miami Beach is the fifth fair we like to visit. We obviously also visit the fair in Caracas and other small fairs, but more as to support them than to buy works, because the pieces presented at these fairs do not fit the quality we are looking for for our collection, not yet at least. <\/p>\n

Q.- As regards what you said before, about your visits to galleries, I deduce you prefer French galleries. What do you think of Paris’ most representative art fair, the fiac ? <\/p>\n

A.- We went to FIAC for many years, when we thought it was a good fair. The problem is that it went downhill and although they have been trying to improve it for two years, it is still not at the same level as the other five I mentioned before. We went back to the fiac in 2004 and we went this year as well, and we did see it had improved somewhat, but it is not one of the top five. <\/p>\n

Q.- Well, you obviously have a lot of Spanish artists in your collection… <\/p>\n

A.- Yes, of course. I have \u201cold\u201d things from Spain, as well as new things. For example, in photography, I have Garc\u00eda Rodero and Garc\u00eda-\u00c1lix. I also have Fernando S\u00e1nchez Castillo, and several others. As regards contemporary art I mostly have photography. In terms of the \u201cclassics,\u201d I have works by Saura, T\u00e0pies and Mir\u00f3. <\/p>\n

Q.- What do you think of the quality of Spanish galleries? <\/p>\n

A.- It’s fine. They can easily stand alongside those located in other countries. Juana de Aizpuru, Helga de Alvear, etc., they are at the same level as any other gallery in the world. There are, obviously, also galleries in Spain that try, but do not make it. For example, I like to visit the Moriarty gallery, in Madrid; I find their pieces quite interesting. There are also galleries in Paris, like the Kamel Mennour gallery \u2013dedicated to photography\u2013 that will be very important, without a doubt. <\/p>\n

Translation: Laura F. Farhall <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Autor: Vivianne Lor\u00eda Revista: L\u00c1PIZ Revista Internacional de Arte n\u00ba 221 Rafael Gelman es una figura habitual en las mejores ferias internacionales. Sociable y ocurrente, dista mucho de la tendencia al estrellato que \u00faltimamente afecta a muchos coleccionistas. As\u00ed, resulta amigable sin ambages ya en el primer contacto, y no teme expresarse con un entusiasmo […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[10],"tags":[444,351,400],"class_list":["post-46185","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-articulos","tag-arte","tag-articulo-html","tag-lapiz-revista-internacional-de-arte"],"acf":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/46185","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=46185"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/46185\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":48410,"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/46185\/revisions\/48410"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=46185"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=46185"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/formacionsimple.com\/revistasculturales\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=46185"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}